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V1.1 - not convincing

 
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Doubter
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:36 am    Post subject: V1.1 - not convincing Reply with quote

Tried the version 1.1 but even some simple keyboard shortcuts don't work properly. If I want to play with OO it I can use the mouse but working with it efficiently is a different matter and sometimes the keyboard can speed up the work quite a bit.

Example: <Alt>ET can stand for 'Cut' or Sheet (Move/Copy, Select, Delete). I can imagine that it would be quite an easy task to check for duplicates and reprogram them in a matter of minutes. Unfortunately Microsoft seems to care just a little bit more about such details.

The integrated HTML Editor is basically a good thing. But when I copy and paste certain web pages too OO it just crashes and wants to send a report to somewhere. I am glad that most open applications can now be recovered at restart but this is not what I would call a stable program.

According to the roadmap on the OO web pages I had the impression that they were rushing to get V1.1 ready because its release was overdue. But I'd rather wait just a little bit longer to get a major release stable than demonstrating once again that most people would be better off using MS Office.

Sorry, no insult intended ...
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DannyB
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are plenty of people who for whatever reason don't like OOo and won't or simply can't use it.

I hope they find something that they are happy using and can afford.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people for whom OOo does what they need and is at the right price.

Some Microsoft advocates that I talk to always seem like they are trying to convince me that I should be using Microsoft Office. Your post did not sound that way. But with the people I am describing, after all the debates are finished, it seems like what it always comes down to is that somehow they are bothered by the fact that myself and others find OOo perfectly adequate.

For everyone, including you, I hope (1) that you find something you can afford that suits your needs, and (2) that OpenOffice.org either is now or will become the software that satisfies number 1.

As fore me, and macro programming, OOo is the most fun toy I've come across since Hypercard.
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Doubter
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:39 am    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply. I get your point and I have to admit that I should not expect more for the price of OO. On the other hand there are programs out there which are either shareware or freeware and they are actually working (e.g.: WinZIP or IrfanView). You might argue that these are much less complex than OO but I'd have to respond that there is also much less manpower involved. Whatever, I hope the OO concept will eventually prove successful, with OO pleasing not only the adventurous and those with more time to spare than myself.

Just one more experience: When I saw that colored image on the left side of your post I remembered that I had unsuccessfully tried OO Draw a few releases back. So I gave V1.1 a chance to demonstrate its improvements: I created a few simple objects and one 3D object, then I decided to center-align the 3D object. After that OO had duplicated it on the screen and appeared to be in urgent need for a redraw. Rather than looking for a redraw function (which should be obsolete in 2003), I have minimized the window. And, after maximizing it again OO had 'captured' a web page as background with the 3D object perfectly centered on the screen. All other objects had disappeared. No major problem - I eventually got the proper screen just by scrolling the window back and forth. Maybe we can blame this on a MS - WinXP graphics driver. ; )

So I guess OO is not ready (yet) for the mainstream of users. However, people hostile to Microsoft might be stubborn enough to ignore the questionable results of some (not all) OO functions and still be happy with their 'bargain' ...

In general I still wish Sun Microsystems good luck with their OO and StarOffice projects/strategies. Their current stock price does not suggest that they are terribly successful at the moment. If this is going to change I'll know that it is time to give OO another try. Till then!
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doubter wrote:
On the other hand there are programs out there which are either shareware or freeware and they are actually working (e.g.: WinZIP or IrfanView).


Two responses to this.

First, the scope of OOo is vastly larger than WinZip. OOo is a much more complex problem. Or maybe to put it differently, the number of man-hours it takes to create OOo vastly exceeds the development effort for WinZip. No slight to WinZip, it is a good product. It is just simple when you compare its development effort to OOo.

Second, let's try a thought experiment. Let's consider WinZip for a moment. Was WinZip always as good as it is today? What is WinZip up to now? Eight point something, or maybe even nine point something, I don't keep track. Now let's examine the following questions....

1. So was WinZip 1.0 as good as it is today?
2. Why not? (I'm assuming you answered "no" to previous question, if you answered "yes", then why have they released subsequent releases?)
3. Should the WinZip developer(s) have waited until NOW, the state the code is in for THIS release, before releasing it and calling it 1.0?

I assume your answer to 1 is "no".

I suggest that the answer to 2 is something like this. "Because they keep improving the product and releasing new versions with increasingly higher version numbers."

Question 3 is really the interesting one that addresses your posts in this forum. One could argue that WinZip 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, etc. were somehow inadequate. After all, I can always imagine new features that I wish it had. Even today. I could forcefully argue that before 2003, WinZip was simply "not ready" for a 1.0 release. But others who have benefited tremendously from WinZip for years would argue that it was right for them to release it when they did, and to then keep improving it. I would apply this same argument to OOo. It is only a 1.1 release after all.

I see people on OOoForum ask for features. Some complain because this thing that they can get for free does not have their pet feature. I would ask this. Wiould it be better for everyone if the OOo developers just waited until, lets say, 2010 to release OOo and call it 1.0, but with all the features it will have by then?

So clearly, OOo is at a point that is not what you would like it to be. But it will improve. It is a good thing that it is available now to me, I find it usable and useful today.

My rambling opinion on a related topic follows....

Some of the features that people elevate above other basic things that still need to be done really make me wonder if people actually know what they actually want. For instance: the biggest thing OOo needs is [insert non-functional enhancement eye-candy here]. It needs better icons. It needs themes. Etc. Really? Instead of basic enhancements to its core functionality? Grammar checking? Splittable views? More and better import/export filters? Multi-head Impress support. etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use starOffice for three years ago and I have no particular problem with it.
I only have problem when I work under Linux with a police FOO and I take this document under Windows whithout this FOO police. I crash two times StaOffice but I understand the problem and then I work differently.
I never have problem with OOoDraw. Few years ago, I used Draw (Micrografx). Now I prefer largely OOoDraw. The fact that it is completely integrated in the Office is for me important. With Microsoft Word, I only use Draw tools with Word 2. With Word95 this tools was not present and remplaced with a Draw tools wich I never use... and of course you can't modify your old drawing works.
The principle I learned from these experiences is that I want to use a Draw tools which can save with his proper format. It's for that reason I used Micrografx Draw, and now I use OOoDraw. Now if I want to write a math formula in my drawing, this is absolutly not a problem.
The migration from Word to StarOffice take me probably one year. I know that before. It's a choice like the choice to discover Linux.
I have already written that one of the difficulties I encountered with OOodraw is that we can not see and manipulate the vanishing point of a 3D Shape. Is it a wish ? I use it only one time to draw a picture (see http://perso.wanadoo.fr/moutou/accueil.htm) and I think I will continue to use OOodraw without that.
The problem with Software is that the best are those you know. Of course the comparaison is difficult without deep knowledge of the other software. For me too, and then I try to speak only about experience...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: V1.1 - not convincing Reply with quote

Doubter wrote:
Tried the version 1.1 but even some simple keyboard shortcuts don't work properly. If I want to play with OO it I can use the mouse but working with it efficiently is a different matter and sometimes the keyboard can speed up the work quite a bit.

Example: <Alt>ET can stand for 'Cut' or Sheet (Move/Copy, Select, Delete). I can imagine that it would be quite an easy task to check for duplicates and reprogram them in a matter of minutes. Unfortunately Microsoft seems to care just a little bit more about such details.

The integrated HTML Editor is basically a good thing. But when I copy and paste certain web pages too OO it just crashes and wants to send a report to somewhere. I am glad that most open applications can now be recovered at restart but this is not what I would call a stable program.

According to the roadmap on the OO web pages I had the impression that they were rushing to get V1.1 ready because its release was overdue. But I'd rather wait just a little bit longer to get a major release stable than demonstrating once again that most people would be better off using MS Office.

Sorry, no insult intended ...


I think this post demonstrates that no software can be all things to all people. You like M$ software, and it does the job for you, great. Statements such as "Unfortunately Microsoft seems to care just a little bit more about such details", are subjective in the extreme, as even I, only an intermediate computer user, could supply dozens of examples of M$'s sloppiness and inattention to details, especially in the matter of security. Likewise you say that "most people would be better off using M$ Office" - an entirely subjective statement. Like many people, I don't even have M$ Office on my PC, (nor is OOo my main Office Suite). I suspect that, if one simply counted up the numbers, "most people" who currently use M$ Office could switch to OOo without noticing the features it lacks from M$ Office. Certainly, OOo 1.1's stability is not an issue on my W2K SP4 machine, and I look forward to trying it out in Mandrake 9.2 very soon. Don't forget too, that users have MUCH more input into OOo than they do into M$ Office (not hard, since users have zero input into Office). If OOo lacks a feature you want, you can file an issue, or vote for it if it already exists. This, of course, does not guarantee that you will get what you want, but it does guarantee that your voice will be heard and noted. Try submitting an issue to M$ and see what happens to it.
As I said, if M$ software does everything you need, and you're happy with it, that's fine. It is quite a leap from there to sweeping generalisations of the sort in your post, however. Remember, all generalisations are dangerous.
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peakquester
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agree. speaking just from several years of general use, m$'s word97 seems capable of remarkable instability for something of its reputation, let alone weird format change bugs -- no wonder they invented the format paintbrush, had to so people could clean up after pastes etc. and support? heh, rumor has it they're slating even recent os's for de-support.

then there's the issue of patronizing a company that acts that obnoxiously too, but maybe that's just me Wink
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I changed from SO 5.2 to OOo 1.1.4 because I found draw in 5.2 was unstable.
OOo often crashes . I don't know why. Sometimes it's because I imported a wmf into draw or because I selected the Circle tool. Or it just crashes when I'm using some other program.
I miss the schedule of SO 5.2 I'm thinking of going back to it. That would of course mean saving all my OO files to xls or rtf to reopen them in SO 5.2.

cpmac
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8daysaweek.co.uk
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't SO use the same file formats as OOo? So no need to convert.

BFN Smile,
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RGB
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cpmac wrote:
I changed from SO 5.2 to OOo 1.1.4 because I found draw in 5.2 was unstable.
OOo often crashes . I don't know why. Sometimes it's because I imported a wmf into draw or because I selected the Circle tool. Or it just crashes when I'm using some other program.
I miss the schedule of SO 5.2 I'm thinking of going back to it. That would of course mean saving all my OO files to xls or rtf to reopen them in SO 5.2.

cpmac

That's very strange: I daily use OOo 1.1.4 in both, linux and windows boxes without a single problem. What is your OS?
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the file format OO opens SO files but saves them in preference to an XML format that takes up less room.

My OS is W98 SE
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