Margin numbers / "recitals"

RolloM · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:32 am Post subject: Margin numbers / "recitals"

Hi,

I am looking for a way to create paragraph numbers (dict.leo.org calls them "recitals") that are written in the margin area for every text body paragraph of a book. See http://www.rwi.unizh.ch/oberassi_schlauris/Dissertation.pdf for an example (on the pages with arabic page numbers).

The numbers should be on the left of the text on left pages and on the right of the text on right pages, and there should only be one number on the top line of every paragraph. I am not looking for line numbers!

Up to now I have used frames anchored to the first line of each paragraph containing a text in a numbered paragraph format. But you have to insert such a frame to every paragraph by hand, it is a hassle to create cross-references and it seems impossible to create an automatic index which references the recitals instead of pages.

Does anyone know a better solution? This is a very common way of numbering german legal texts and would make Writer a killer application, as you can't easily do this with Word either...

Thanks,

R.

Bhikkhu Pesala · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:39 am Post subject:

Do we really need to download a 4 Mbyte PDF file to see this example? A link to a posted image would be a lot more convenient.

Example

I can see that this would be very useful for producing legal documents where you might add or remove paragraphs and want the numbers to update. I'm not too sure if it can be done automatically in Open Office either. Getting the numbers to alternate left and right would be hard. To do that they would need to be part of the page style, like page numbers, but to increment automatically they would need to be part of a paragraph style like paragraph numbering or outlining.
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RolloM · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:46 am Post subject:

jrkrideau · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Margin numbers / "recitals"

RolloM · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Margin numbers / "recitals"

Hi,

Thanks for your answer!

See my newest example for how I currently do it here.

There are several problems if one has a closer look:

Alternating left and right margins

This is the least problem - there's an option in the frame properties where you can choose the frame you entered to be mirrored on opposite pages.

Relative position of frames to top of paragraph

Depending on the top/bottom margin settings of the previous paragraphs (dunno how this is called - I use a German version of OOo), the top of the paragraph seems to be calculated differently, so if you define the frame type to start at a certain offset from the top of the paragraph, the number is sometimes correct (1), sometimes not (6 etc).

Automatic numbering of the recitals

Define a frame, put an automatically numbered paragraph layout inside, and autonumbering works. See the example mentioned above (btw: there is no way to send attachments in this forum, isnt there?)

Cross references:

Looks like referencing works +/- (see at the end of the first paragraph of the example), its more about the way OOo handles it. The main problem is that reference numbers are sorted alphabetically, i.e. 1, 10, 2, etc, but this is more cosmetic. Guess we can't do that any better without changing the program itself.

Automatically add recitals to paragraphs of a certain style

This does not work yet. I dont know if one could do this with a macro either, as for paragraph styles - unlike for frame stiles - you cannot define a macro which is to be executed if a paragraph of that style is created.

Currently I mark a recital frame of any other already numbered paragraph, and paste it to the beginning of the new paragraph. Automating this would be very cool, though...

Index

By creating an automatic index I mean the list of words at the end of a book referencing the positions where they appear in the text. See the last pages of my (long, sorry) example in the first post. There, the index references pages instead of recitals which is not optimal as references to recitals were more precise and therefore indexes in legal books usually refer to recitals if they are used.

I don't know if the indexing function is programmed flexible enough to implement referencing something else than pages with a macro. Ok, one could completely redesign the index function with a macro, but this seems too much work.

Regards

R.

jrkrideau · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:22 am Post subject:

Congradulations you are making real progress.

I wonder if the problem with the placement of the frames depending on the paragraph margins might be addressed by changing the anchor point from Paragraph to Character?

Otherwise are there stylistic reasons for the differences in the margins between the paragraphs? If not why not just edit the margins in the styles.

Good luck

BTW how do you mirror the frames ?
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Bhikkhu Pesala · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:45 am Post subject:

RolloM · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:06 am Post subject:

The "register true" setting does solve the problem with the vertical offset. Thanks Bhikkhu Pesala. The setting makes text on both sides of the page be on the same hight, so you don't see the text on the other side through the paper. Its a cosmetical issue, but if we could solve it...

I'll try to translate the settings for the frame mirroring - as I said I use the German version pf Writer... Its on the "Type" page of the frame settings dialog, the checkbox below the "horizontal" setting.

I don't see a possibility to change the anchor point to characther. Where would that be?

Bhikkhu Pesala · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:23 am Post subject:

jrkrideau · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:25 am Post subject:

Bhikkhu Pesala · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:22 am Post subject:

RolloM · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject:

[quote="Bhikkhu Pesala"]

JohnV · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:46 am Post subject:

It was a dreary day yesterday and this seemed a good problem to attack with a macro so I did. Here is what I have to date and how it works.

The user needs to create a left and right page sample frame next to a paragraph near the beginning of the document that will not receive frames. These samples control the alignment of the frames to be inserted and contain nothing. They will ultimately be removed.

Next the user needs to edit the “first” line of the macro where “psn” is defined to include the names of all paragraph styles to receive frames.

The macro uses copy and paste so it can only do the right or left pages at one time, i.e., it must be run twice to do all pages. To do the right pages select the right page sample (green handles) run the macro and use the “1” option. The “2” option does left pages and the “3” option will remove any frames previously inserted by the macro.

The macro pastes the frame, inserts the number and, with the numbered selected, inserts a bookmark named “Para n” for easy cross-referencing.

What the macro doesn't do:
1) Use an auto-incrementing number field. Probably doable as I was initially copying sample frames that contained one but that led to other problems that I believe I can work around.
2) Catch any paragraphs in frames.
3) Don't know what happens if a paragraph is in a table.
4) Remove any cross-reference field(s) if you insert one and then delete the frames. May be doable.
5) Work on a selected area so you could apply frames to incremental writing. This one is very likely doable but requires a slightly different approach for iterating through the paragraphs.
6) Other things I haven't thought of.

RolloM · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:46 am Post subject:

Thanks for your suggestion, JohnV

Would you see a possibility to start a macro as soon as a new paragraph of a certain type is inserted? Alternative: It would already be comfortable if one could just start a macro (with a hotkey, of course) which adds a number to the paragraph the cursor is in instead of having to copy an existing frame to the clipboard first.

Any Ideas? Thank you...

JohnV · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject:

I undertook this macro as a learning experience and now believe that I can provide the hotkey solution. The frame inserted will still be base on right and left page frame samples you provide but other than that I don't think further user action should be required. We will see.

I have been modifing my code anyway, based on some things I have learned along the way, and I may not have to do much to put it in the form you seek.