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TIRED OF THE GAZILLION RPM'S IN OPEN OFFICE! OO is unfair!!!

 
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ladymecha
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:05 am    Post subject: TIRED OF THE GAZILLION RPM'S IN OPEN OFFICE! OO is unfair!!! Reply with quote

Alright its been over a year that OO has come out with its 2.0 and so far they STILL haven't come up with a viable linux installer that would be friendly to non RPM distros.
Its about time that Open office got a clue, a lot of the most popular linux distros these days are DEBIAN based.
I use Ubuntu, and I am MORE THEN TIRED of having to convert a bazillion RPM's to debs.I think OO isnt as open source as it claims to be, a more flexible model would be OPEN to alternate linux distrobutions.
Its gone on LONG ENOUGH Open office, we DEMAND SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!
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9point9
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has been discussed (including by yourself) many times before. That "DEMAND SERVICE" bit at the end has me in stitches as it's just not going to happen.

What should OOo do? Provide deb's and cut off half the localisations? That's really what you're suggesting as there is no mirror space for a second package management system.

So you use Ubuntu, a repository based distro. Why not install the packages your distro puts in it's repositories? Your distro doesn't do up to date packages or releases buggy modified versions? Perhaps you should find a new distro. Instead you could download some deb's from a 3rd party source, Pavel Janik puts some on ftp.linux.cz that might interest you.

Many open source apps provide no packages at all, just the source it is then the duty of distros to package it up and that works perfectly well for KDE as a distribution method.

OOo is open source, RPM is open source, there is absolutely no argument for saying that RPM's instantly make something closed source when the source code is still available as a .tar.gz.
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ladymecha
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but you are under sabayon are you not?
are you just sick and tired of having to compile code when you dont have to?
and as for the ubuntu repos, sometimes its updates are slow and OO has some kind of bull issue and we are left behind just because OO is ignorant of non RPM distros.
wouldnt it be easier and better if OO created a general zip file?
you know one that ANY distro can use?
and what happened to the old installer?
why didnt they do it?
and as for third parties sometimes they are not always reliable.
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Hagar Delest
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, upgrading is not so frequent (once every 3 months at best).
There are 5 command lines to type for the whole installation (see here).

So, yes, it's boring but packaging is not a very high priority I think. Better spend energy fixing bugs.
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noranthon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

9point9 and I have different (possibly diametrically opposed) points of view on this subject but I have to agree with him that change is not going to happen.

I am not persuaded that I have heard a truthful explanation for the original decision but the point has been made that rpm is part of the LSB. I am equally sceptical about the reasons for that. IIRC, Debian is a supporter of the LSB, but who can make sense of anything Debian does any more?

I don't know whether to be baffled or just amused by the popularity of Ubuntu, even with technically able people. I've tried to install a functional Ubuntu (K and X) twice and been prevented by technical failures of the OS or the installer. I've had similar problems with derivatives. There have been more than a few threads here on problems experienced with Ubuntu and Debian versions of OpenOffice.

Putting up with the many shortcomings of open source and the childish attitudes of programmers (~ developers) is part of the price we have to pay for a degree of freedom from anti-social corporations.

Transforming rpms to something you can use on another Linux OS seems to me like unfrying eggs in order to scramble them. There are tools you can use. You just have to work harder to get the buggy thing installed. Hagar de l'Est (who uses Ubuntu) has posted a HOWTO in this forum and there is also this from the users' list and an article.

On my to-do list is installing my 2.0.2 version (the last working en_GB version) on a Slackware derivative. I'm a disgruntled Linux user as well but the fault lies primarily with the distros. Software providers such as openoffice.org have a conundrum if they are limited to providing one Linux version. Kde's solution, as 9point9 mentions, is to leave it to the distros to compile Kde themselves.

EDIT: I was so slow composing this that the previous two posts were filed while I was doing so.
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9point9
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ladymecha wrote:
but you are under sabayon are you not?

Correct. Best distro I've used used.
ladymecha wrote:
are you just sick and tired of having to compile code when you dont have to?

No, I install the official RPM's using RPM:
Code:
rpm -Uvih --nodeps *.rpm

Just because a system is not RPM based does not mean you can not install RPM's on it. I have used this method on several non-RPM based systems, all you need to do is install RPM on your system and manually think about dependencies, just as you would a .tar.gz.

RPM is in the Ubuntu repositories somewhere so you could just install RPM's.

I would emerge through Portage every time if it was the official source code but there are various changes which make it unacceptable for someone who wants to have OOo as it was intended. It links to to many dependencies to build some things and often wants you to install some seemingly irrelevant Gnome packages.

ladymecha wrote:
and as for the ubuntu repos, sometimes its updates are slow and OO has some kind of bull issue and we are left behind just because OO is ignorant of non RPM distros.

Ubuntu (and Debian in general) is built around using repositories. If they are going to expect you to use their package management format (.deb is only a format like .rpm, the tools to access it are irrelevent as you can use APT for RPM's on some distros, it's just a frontend) they should provide packages.
ladymecha wrote:
wouldnt it be easier and better if OO created a general zip file?

On Unix people typically use .tar.gz's for this rather than .zip but no, this would not be easier or better. Read the topic on the mailing list archives from December:
ladymecha wrote:
and what happened to the old installer?

Are you volunteering to maintain it? Someone would have to update it for every release and test it every time to make sure it works.

@noranthon: I wouldn't say we're diametrically opposed on it. Wink What Slackware based distro are you using?
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Last edited by 9point9 on Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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ladymecha
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but what about newcommers?
A lot of linux newcommers are coming to distros like Ubuntu as Ubuntu by far has to be one of the easiest distros to use.
a lot of people dont know half the stuff I do, and maybe some day they might want to get a new upgrade of open office other then the one in the repo's.
I really find the current system frustrating, irritating and downright annoying.
I dont care if you perfer a RPM based distro, I dont care if you like slackware or any of that.
Dont you guys even care about making OO look good to the general public.
Hey as far as open source software Open office is a looser, while Mozillas firefox and ubuntu have been running strong OO is held back by its non support of non rpm distros.
I dont know why the spoot OO could not just shorten its package to just ONE package that woulod be a crapload easier then the current method.
Debian and Ubuntu are very nice and strong distros, disagree with them all you like but I think Ubuntu and debian need as much credit as say mandriva or redhat...
I will stand by my opinion, this issue is known too well and it needs to end.

oh and noranthon
those links you gave are crap, they just say the same method we use now by going over each RPM one at a time in a very painful mannor.


At this rate I am thinking of making my own verson of open office that would not be bogged down by RPM's, if this will not be resolved by OO, create an alternate to it...
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9point9
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ladymecha wrote:
but what about newcommers?
A lot of linux newcommers are coming to distros like Ubuntu as Ubuntu by far has to be one of the easiest distros to use.

That's what repositories are for. A distro doesn't go about setting up it's package management system without thinking about strategy. If they want people to use their repositories, they need to update their packages frequently. Gentoo does it fine, Debian (after a while) does it. Seeing how Ubuntu was branched from Debian and does not use the same package repositories, they should be putting the same effort in to keep their packages up to date. If they can't keep their repositories up to date then they should supply the tools (RPM) as standard (they are only in the repos) for people to install 3rd party packages. RPM is part of the LSB and is the closest thing to a packaging standard that there is.
ladymecha wrote:
I dont care if you perfer a RPM based distro, I dont care if you like slackware or any of that.

Well what's to say that we care anything about what you're saying? I'm not obliged to and I'm trying to respond to your arguments on a technical basis but you're not really endearing anyone to your case.
ladymecha wrote:
Hey as far as open source software Open office is a looser, while Mozillas firefox and ubuntu have been running strong OO is held back by its non support of non rpm distros.

You're incorrect here. Mozilla support no form of package management what so ever. It is not a non-discriminatory Linux application however as it is not a Linux application, it is a Gnome application and is continusously becoming more and more Gnome orientated. Just look at it's dependencies. Relating a distro to a program is wrong too, the fact that Ubuntu does not use RPM is of no consequence at all for it's success or not.
ladymecha wrote:
I dont know why the spoot OO could not just shorten its package to just ONE package that woulod be a crapload easier then the current method.

I have proposed merging the core RPM's into a single RPM which is being considered. This would stop the circular dependencies.

ladymecha wrote:
At this rate I am thinking of making my own verson of open office that would not be bogged down by RPM's, if this will not be resolved by OO, create an alternate to it...

That's not branching, that's just repackaging and that's something that people already do, that's what distros do. Firstly, do you have any idea how much server space and bandwidth you will require to do this? Whatever you're thinking, it's way more than that. This is why OOo can only support one package management format (the most popular), there simply isn't the disk space and bandwidth the cope with th number of supported languages and versions. Secondly, who would use your packages? Seeing how there already are lots of other 3rd party .deb sources (for Ubuntu or Debian) you'd be in a crowded market and they wouldn't be taken seriously. Debian will only update a package (which they'd build themselves, don't think they'd trust yours) once it's gone through their own drawn out QA process. Ubuntu will only update theirs once per release cycle and again, they build their own.
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ladymecha
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bah.
I think this is a sign that the staff here doesnt give a crap about us ubuntu folks, I make a GENUINE complaint and i get shot at.
Fine be a buncha jerks...
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9point9
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ladymecha wrote:
I think this is a sign that the staff here doesnt give a crap about us ubuntu folks, I make a GENUINE complaint and i get shot at.

No one here is 'staff'. We are all volunteers and not associated with OOo. You were not making a genuine complaint but whining. A genuine complaint would not be full of capital letters and long strings of exclamation marks. Anyone who voluntarily tries to help people won't get a good impression of you from that. Genuine issues go in the issue tracker and are considered. This one has been ages ago and that is why they arrived at using RPM. Every argument against what you said was based on fact, facts you won't accept. I suggest you grow up.

There is no reason why Ubuntu should be treated any differently from any other version of Linux. Currently it is treated the same as any other, it's just a logical choice that the package management format to use is the most popular one as .rpm is more popular than .deb. What you are demanding is for OOo to package for Ubuntu as if it is a special case, that's just ludicrous.

As you've noted, I don't use an RPM based distro and I'd actually be fine if OOo got rid of RPM packages too and only distributed as source. That's as KDE does and there's no problem for them. Everyone just installs the packages from their distro. The problem with that is that distros can't be trusted with it. If distros just built the package and didn't break anything, that would be fine. Also, OOo has binary packages for Windows and Mac and to stop people claiming it was anti-Linux, there's got to be a binary for Linux. RPM is the obvious choice.
ladymecha wrote:
Fine then I will make my own Open office varient, release it without having to convert a billion packages and it will kick the tar out of the standard OO....

Get back to us once you find you can't compile the source.... and again when you've not understood your own package management system.... and again when you find your package is unstable because you threw some bad cflags at it... and then when you find that you underestimated how much infrastructure you need to host files like that...
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noranthon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hagar de l'Est wrote:
There are 5 command lines to type for the whole installation

That's it, ladymecha. I don't understand why you are so angry, especially with fellow victims. I also do not understand why you think it's easier to compile an installation from source. I get very, very tired just thinking about it.

Your only problem seems to be that Ubuntu does not keep its repositories up to date. Have you favoured other Ubuntu users with the abuse which you have hurled at us?

There are tools to convert the official installer to a simple archive but I'm not going to the trouble of finding any more links for you, only to get more abuse for my trouble. You can find them if you really are interested in installing the official build.

9point9, I've installed Vector 5.8. It's very good but I found it lacking points compared with my other OS, so I've continued to use that. That OS has one problem which I can't fix, so I'll develop the Vector installation further. Lack of time is the obstacle.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noranthon wrote:
I've installed Vector 5.8.

That's what I've trialled on a ten year old machine. Still very usable on that. You can install OOo on it using the RPM's (I've done this before) or install OOo via Slapt-get from a Vector repository. The Vector OOo package is actually very good as it's vanilla.
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