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User Interface Revolution for OpenOffice.org 3.0?
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yookoala
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: User Interface Revolution for OpenOffice.org 3.0? Reply with quote

I don't like Microsoft. And I don't like Microsoft Office very much, either. But when I look at Microsoft Office 2007, I have to admit that it is cool. The user interface have a great revolution and become very user friendly. I especially like the new design of Fluent and Mini Toolbar. They greatly improved the user interaction. Things become more accessible and straight-forward and I think we can really call it a good interface.

If we appreciate OpenOffice.org 2.0 to have similar interface like Microsoft Office 2000 and XP, we definitely want OpenOffice.org 3.0 to take advantage on interface revolution like Office 2007. We want these not because we love Office, but because we want a better office suite software. The UI evolution could be a "Office 2007" way, or could be a totally different innovation. My point is: UI of next OO must move on.

Do you agree with me?
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Sirmatto
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they change the UI, the need to, unlike Microsoft, still allow the old UI to be used, because there's quite a few people that don't like the new UI. Plus, it'll give people time to continue to be productive when they are still learning the new UI.
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yookoala
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree there would be few people who don't like new UI. Perhaps it is better to let user to choose which to use on installation.
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Ed
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which part of "revolution" means "straight rip-off of someone else's design"?
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yookoala
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed wrote:
Which part of "revolution" means "straight rip-off of someone else's design"?


What does that mean?
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Ed
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yookoala wrote:
Ed wrote:
Which part of "revolution" means "straight rip-off of someone else's design"?


What does that mean?


You started the thread with the title of "Interface Revolution", then in the first post you were advocating that OOo should imitate MS Office's interface.

My point is that directly ripping off someone else's work is not a "revolution". To be a revolution it has th be something new, not a straight copy of what someone has already done.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

One of the main drawbacks of MS Office 2007 is that it has a non-standard interface which requires relearning all the basics to use. OOo could stand to gain a lot from the fact that unlike MSO its interface is standard. There is nothing to be gained from blindly imitating everyone else's faults.
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yookoala
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed wrote:

You started the thread with the title of "Interface Revolution", then in the first post you were advocating that OOo should imitate MS Office's interface.

My point is that directly ripping off someone else's work is not a "revolution". To be a revolution it has th be something new, not a straight copy of what someone has already done.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

One of the main drawbacks of MS Office 2007 is that it has a non-standard interface which requires relearning all the basics to use. OOo could stand to gain a lot from the fact that unlike MSO its interface is standard. There is nothing to be gained from blindly imitating everyone else's faults.


First, I'm not advocating that OOo should use MS Office interface. I do suggest that we need to change OOo's interface. And I do suggest OOo have something good to learn from MS Office 2007. I also suggest that OOo may have own's innovation to UI, if possible. Most important is, I think it is time for OOo to change.

My point on "revolution" is not just ripping off someone's work, nor straight copy of the old one. Things change. Mozilla Firefox, Opera and Safari have shown us a better way on internet browsing. Breyl shown us a stunning desktop. Mac OS Leopard shown a easier way on backup and restore. Multitouch screen bring us to a new pointing interaction. MS Office 2007 show us that a better user-machine interaction is possible. Why do we stick on "standard"?

Why don't we stick on punch card? Because keyboard is better. Why do we use mouse? Because mouse can do many things far easier than keyboard. I use Mozilla Firefox because tab-browsing and extension is very good to use. I even prefer Gnome, KDE over the plain X-Window since icon, panels and applets make things easier. Most of these became "standard" now.

I suggest OOo to have something like Fluent and Mini Toolbar, not because they are new, but because they are easier to learn and to use. Even if these change require "re-learning", I don't think they are "fault". More thing may come to the world of office suite, but no doubt the tide is changing. Time will tell whether these are "fault" or not.

This can also be a good time for OOo to state its own future instead of just "copying". I'm not sure where to start, but I believe oss can be source innovation. Of course, OOo can follow the end of tide, and proving that oss is not innovative. But that would be sad for oss fans.

As I sad in the first post:
yookoala wrote:
The UI evolution could be a "Office 2007" way, or could be a totally different innovation. My point is: UI of next OO must move on.


I agree some user still stick with old "standard" interface. OOo may have user to choose which interface to use, but user want a choice besides the "standard" one. Please let users to choose.
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Ed
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yookoala wrote:

I suggest OOo to have something like Fluent and Mini Toolbar, not because they are new, but because they are easier to learn and to use. Even if these change require "re-learning", I don't think they are "fault". More thing may come to the world of office suite, but no doubt the tide is changing. Time will tell whether these are "fault" or not.
Whatever your personal opinion of these features is, the fact remains that they are non standard. Standards exist for a reason.

How is something that requires any learning at all "easier to learn" than something standard that requires absolutely no learning for anyone already familiar with standard programs?
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maxqnz
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed wrote:
yookoala wrote:

I suggest OOo to have something like Fluent and Mini Toolbar, not because they are new, but because they are easier to learn and to use. Even if these change require "re-learning", I don't think they are "fault". More thing may come to the world of office suite, but no doubt the tide is changing. Time will tell whether these are "fault" or not.
Whatever your personal opinion of these features is, the fact remains that they are non standard. Standards exist for a reason.


Sticking with something merely because it is "the standard" is not much of a counter-argument. Nor does it make much sense as a mantra coming from someone using OOo which is using a format that is itself "not standard". That is, the .DOC file format is the de facto standard, in exactly the same unofficial way that the current toolbar layout is.

I am no fan of MS, and could not get enthused about the Ribbon toolbar when I used the beta for a few months, but to dismiss changes for being "non standard" makes about as much sense as dismissing ice for being "non hot". Any change is by definition "non standard" but if standards were never challenged by innovations there would be no progress.

You make another unwarranted assumption in saying "How is something that requires any learning at all "easier to learn" than something standard that requires absolutely no learning for anyone already familiar with standard programs?"(e.a) The OP did not say that learning the new interfaces was easier than using an interface one was already familiar with. The OP's sentence may have been capable of clearer construction, but it is perfectly feasible to parse it as saying that learning the new interfaces is easier than learning the old ones was.

The reality is that the OP's last post was well-reasoned and thoughtfully explained, but you dismissed it by citing "standards". Not official, ISO, W3C type standards, but simply de facto standards establsihed by majority usage. Precisely the same sort of standards that OOo itself seeks to overturn with ODF, for example.
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enine
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried out MSOffice 2007 and that new system is very poorly laid out. Tools you would expect in one place are somewhere else and locations of things change, it requires extra steps sometimes to find the tool you want.
Also display standards are changing, everyone is going widescreen so the display resolution is getting wider and shorter which makes taller toolbars a bad design as you loose even more workspace. My work laptop display is 1440x900 and when I run office 2007 I have a bunch of empty space on each side of the page. OOo works better because I can move the toolbars to the sides and fill up the waster space and free up some space at the top and bottom of the page so it fits the ahrdware better and no moving buttons, the interface in every version of MSoffice since 2000 has had menus that rearragne themselves so your pace gets broken as you have to stop and look for the things you want, now they extend this to the toolbars makes productivity even worse.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that interface of MS Office 2007 is very good, much better than current one in OOo. I'm not for copying MS but I think that there should be some interface rewrites and improvements that will not leave OOo behind, even make it superior to ms office (like something similar to ribbon, tabbed interface and so on).
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Ed
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maxqnz wrote:
Nor does it make much sense as a mantra coming from someone using OOo which is using a format that is itself "not standard". That is, the .DOC file format is the de facto standard, in exactly the same unofficial way that the current toolbar layout is..
Have you not been keeping up to date? The format that OOo used is an ISO standard. The DOC format on the other hand is a non standard program-specific format. Please do some research.

cenebris wrote:
Ieven make it superior to ms office (like something similar to ribbon, tabbed interface and so on).
How would doing "something like" what MSO already has make it "superior to" MSO? By definition to be superior it has to be different!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed wrote:
maxqnz wrote:
Nor does it make much sense as a mantra coming from someone using OOo which is using a format that is itself "not standard". That is, the .DOC file format is the de facto standard, in exactly the same unofficial way that the current toolbar layout is..
Have you not been keeping up to date? The format that OOo used is an ISO standard. The DOC format on the other hand is a non standard program-specific format. Please do some research.

cenebris wrote:
Ieven make it superior to ms office (like something similar to ribbon, tabbed interface and so on).
How would doing "something like" what MSO already has make it "superior to" MSO? By definition to be superior it has to be different!


ODF IS an ISO standard now, it wan't when OOo innovated by introducing it. Also, the toolbar/UI layout you are describing as standard is NOT an ISO. It has achieved de facto standard status through the dominance of the software that use it, as in the case of the DOC format.

Finally, "something like" does not mean "exactly the same". It is easily possible for something to be "like" something else yet superior. The internal combustion engine of a Rolls-Royce is "something like" the engine of a Yugo, but I'm confident most would say that the Rolls-Royce was superior.
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MaxxuM
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yookoala wrote:
Ed wrote:

You started the thread with the title of "Interface Revolution", then in the first post you were advocating that OOo should imitate MS Office's interface.

My point is that directly ripping off someone else's work is not a "revolution". To be a revolution it has th be something new, not a straight copy of what someone has already done.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

One of the main drawbacks of MS Office 2007 is that it has a non-standard interface which requires relearning all the basics to use. OOo could stand to gain a lot from the fact that unlike MSO its interface is standard. There is nothing to be gained from blindly imitating everyone else's faults.


First, I'm not advocating that OOo should use MS Office interface. I do suggest that we need to change OOo's interface. And I do suggest OOo have something good to learn from MS Office 2007. I also suggest that OOo may have own's innovation to UI, if possible. Most important is, I think it is time for OOo to change.

My point on "revolution" is not just ripping off someone's work, nor straight copy of the old one. Things change. Mozilla Firefox, Opera and Safari have shown us a better way on internet browsing. Breyl shown us a stunning desktop. Mac OS Leopard shown a easier way on backup and restore. Multitouch screen bring us to a new pointing interaction. MS Office 2007 show us that a better user-machine interaction is possible. Why do we stick on "standard"?

Why don't we stick on punch card? Because keyboard is better. Why do we use mouse? Because mouse can do many things far easier than keyboard. I use Mozilla Firefox because tab-browsing and extension is very good to use. I even prefer Gnome, KDE over the plain X-Window since icon, panels and applets make things easier. Most of these became "standard" now.

I suggest OOo to have something like Fluent and Mini Toolbar, not because they are new, but because they are easier to learn and to use. Even if these change require "re-learning", I don't think they are "fault". More thing may come to the world of office suite, but no doubt the tide is changing. Time will tell whether these are "fault" or not.

This can also be a good time for OOo to state its own future instead of just "copying". I'm not sure where to start, but I believe oss can be source innovation. Of course, OOo can follow the end of tide, and proving that oss is not innovative. But that would be sad for oss fans.

As I sad in the first post:
yookoala wrote:
The UI evolution could be a "Office 2007" way, or could be a totally different innovation. My point is: UI of next OO must move on.


I agree some user still stick with old "standard" interface. OOo may have user to choose which interface to use, but user want a choice besides the "standard" one. Please let users to choose.


Totally agree...
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Angel Blue01
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently used Office 2007 for the first time, and I can say the thing I don't like about it is the new interface. Its too hard to find some things. I like the idea of keeping commands in "tabs" rather than traditional menus but this isn't a good way. I really don't like that you can't customize it. I customized my MS Office (now OOo) toolbars quite a bit and there's no way to get the same effect.

The Ribbon UI is entirly against what most developers use as a model. New users, who arn't used to computers yet, will find it easier. They won't like that other apps don't work the same way. Existing computer users will be turned off from any program that doesn't follow UI convention, OOo included if its done that way. I personally won't use it because its so different, and doesn't meet any company's UI standards.

I like UI inovation but that's precisly the problem: most other programs won't follow that convention and confusing all users.
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