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help me anchor this frame

 
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jamtat
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: help me anchor this frame Reply with quote

Ok. I have a document that needs to have text across the bottom of every page--actually, centered across the bottom--hugging the bottom margin. The text that appears there will be one line, and most of the time does not stretch from left to right margin but is a bit shorter than the margins. It's a footer sort of thing, except that the text that appears on every page will be slightly different.

I decided early on that a text frame, rather than a footer, was the way to do this. Was I right?

I've actually created the document and have got it looking the way I want. But I'm still editing, and I've noticed that things like changing the header size slightly can make the frames disappear (they're actually getting pushed into the lower page margin, but the effect is that they are not visible at all until I resize the header, so they really do seem to just disappear. I discovered the fix [resizing headers] by a happy accident). To get the placement of these frames, I should technically be using page anchoring, I suppose. But since this document will be merged with another at some point, I can't use page anchoring: if I do, all these frames will jump to the first pages of the document I merge this one with (I've discovered this unfortunate detail by experience). So, page anchoring seems out, effectively. I'm not sure which of the others--to paragraph, to character, as character--apply. I'd like input on that.

I currently have the frames anchored to character, but anomalies sometimes arise (as described above) and I'm wondering if changing the anchoring will help. If not, then getting a better understanding of the options and what they do will at least have been gained.

A further description of the document may be needed. These are not pages of text. Rather, each page contains two frames: one hugs the top margin, the other the bottom margin. The top frame contains a table. In the table's left column I have inserted a large graphic. In the right, much narrower, table column, is a series of numbers running the length of the graphic. There are varying amounts of space between upper and lower frames on each page, depending on the somewhat varying size of the graphics. Sometimes the space amounts to only about a single line, sometimes it is as much as 1.5 inches or so. All text on the page appears only within the frames, or else in the header. No text is contained elsewhere on the pages.

Given these constraints and characteristics, what is the right anchoring of the three I've mentioned (paragraph, to character, as character) for the text frame that hugs the bottom margin? Is "to character"--as I currently have it--the best option, or not?

Thanks, James

PS Yes, I've read the paragraph in the manual about frames, and it's not very informative. I see no sort of answers to the query I'm posing here in the manual.
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scottcarr
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you setting the frames on each page yourself?

If so, why not set the Anchor as Page. That way it will stay in the same spot, and you can wrap text around it.
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jamtat
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply, scottcarr. It sounds like either you didn't read my post very carefully, or you have some solution to the problems I mentioned with doing things as you say that you've not specified. If by "setting the frames on each page [myself]" you mean am I manually inserting each frame into the page, the answer is, yes. But when you talk about text wrapping around the frame, it seems as though you've disregarded my assertion that "[al]l text on the page appears only within the frames, or else in the header. No text is contained elsewhere on the pages." And when you recommend anchoring my frames to page, you seem to disregard what I've said about needing to merge this document with another at a later stage, and how anchoring frames to the page causes all frames to jump to the beginning pages of the document you merge or combine the page-anchored-frames document with. If you have some solution to that problem, I'd love to hear it. I've had to recreate this entire 80 page document, mostly manually, because of problems I was having with trying to insert pages before the page-anchored-frame pages (they would get inserted at the end, rather than at the beginning of the document) and because experiments with inserting the document into another it needs to be merged with was causing frames to jump to the beginning of the entire document. I made a post specifically about this problem (I've addressed it in more than one thread) and have gotten no responses. I assume therefore that this is some insurmountable problem that the software has with manipulating page-anchored-frame pages/documents (otherwise known as a program bug). My own experimentation proves it, but I'm not much of a techie. The silence of others on this list regarding my description of the problem and possible solutions has led me to conclude this is a problem with the way the program works. Do you know otherwise? If so, please divulge.

James

PS Experiments with inserting my page-anchored-frames document at the end of another with which it needs to be merged wreaked total havoc with frame placement. The 70-odd frames all jumpred to the beginning pages of the 100-odd page document I was trying to insert the page-anchored-frames document into. I encourage you to experiment with this and see if your results match mine.
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scottcarr
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the misunderstanding. This sounds like a very interesting idea, but I would need to actually see what you are doing.

Is it possible for you to email me the files your are dealing with?
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jamtat
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottcarr wrote:
Is it possible for you to email me the files your are dealing with?

This section of my document is gigantic--over 40MB--plus it's subject to some copyright restrictions. So sending the whole section is not really an option. I could send a page or two containing the frames and graphic-in-table inserted in frame. A couple of pages would come in at about 1MB. As an alternative to that, I could publish some screenshots to my web space. Finally, here's a link to another thread where I discussed my problems with page-anchored frames: http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=21685 .

James
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jamtat
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decided to try the screenshot option first. Go to http://cmiller.sdf-us.org/frameanchor.png for a view of a sample page from document under question. The image (jpg) is inserted in a table that is, in turn, inserted into a frame. That (upper) frame is anchored to paragraph for the moment, and hugs the top margin. As an aside, I will later anchor that/those frame(s) to page because I want them centered vertically on the page--but that will happen only at the very end when the document is stabilized and I'm sure I'll not be adding any more pages (problem with inserting pages before page-achored frames does not allow adding pages without throwing frame placement into disarray). Anyway, my question in this thread is about anchoring of the lower frame, the one hugging the bottom margin. As I mentioned, I currently have it anchored to character. But I'm not sure this is the best option, and do not really understand which of the three remaining anchoring options (to paragraph, to character, as character) might be best for my purposes, or even what they might do relative to one another in that regard.

Input will be appreciated. If you still want me to send a file, Scott Carr, let me know if you can receive a 1MB attachment. Then I can send you a few (probably 3) sample pages.

James

PS The screenshot is 1280x1024 resolution, so may not render well on lower resolution screens. You could always copy it and resize to your liking. It is large (ca 700kb) and will take a bit to load, too.
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JohnV
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you considered using a Caption for this frame instead of a separate frame. (Select frame, right click, Caption) A caption will automatically be numbered and contain the text that appears in the caption dialog's Catagory box but you can change it to whatever. You can put your special text in the Caption box. Once the caption is applied it is just a text entry which you can enter and edit so you can delete the Catagory text as well as the number if they don't fit your needs. You can also create a separation from the original frame by pressing Enter to drive the caption down the page.

The caption and original frame are bound together so if you move one you move them both and the numbering, if any and if appropriate, will change.

On the other hand, enlarging the size of your header could still give you problems. As a general rule you should fix the header/footer size as big as it's every going to be before you start adding things to the document. If you need the header to be different sizes in different place just use a different page style.

Given the problem you noted about anchoring a frame to the page, I don't see that you are going to be able to solve your problem with any other type of anchor. I think a caption is as close as you're going to get which is sort of an anchor solution. The caption is in a frame that encloses the original frame and to which the original frame is anchored
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jamtat
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll look into the caption option you mention JohnV, though I have to say I'm kind of fed up with recreating and tweaking this document. As I mentioned, it currently looks the way I want it to. I just wasn't sure which of the remaining three types of anchoring (to paragraph, to character, as character) might be more suitable to what I'm doing, if any. I guess maybe they're all more or less misappropriated means for doing what I want, eh?

Back to captions: so, each of my 75-odd table-in-frames could have its own distinct caption? As I mentioned, the text in the bottom frame is not exactly the same on any page. If the caption option can do this, it could be worth looking into. But I'm not quite clear on how the positioning is done with these captions: would I just need to hit the enter key repeatedly til the caption hits the bottom of the page? And won't that introduce some variation from page-to-page given that these upper frames are not consitent in size?

I think I'm through fiddling with headers. Apropos your comments, hindsight is always 20/20. Being neither a desktop publisher, a power wordprocessing user, nor having ever created a document of the size and scope of this one, it was impossible to work out all the formatting details from the start. If I ever do another one of these, I'll have some starting strategies. But with this one, it's been more or less starting from square one all around.

James
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jamtat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've experimented a bit with your caption suggestion JohnV, and I don't think I'll be able to use it. All my problems really seem related to my need to center something vertically on the page. I need to do this because, in my view the finished product will look better if the irregularly-sized elements with which I'm dealing are centered vertically from page-to-page. In OOo Writer, the only way (apparently) to center an item vertically on the page is to use a frame and, furthermore, to anchor the frame to page. Woe betide you should you need to add any additional pages before those page-anchored frames, or should you need to insert your page-anchored-frame document(s) into another document.

With respect to captions: captions need to be included within the frame. To make the caption hug the bottom margin (another constraint I place for aesthetic reasons), the caption must be inserted into the frame, then the frame must be resized such that it extends the full length of the page, then the caption must be carriage-returned down til it hits the bottom margin. That does, in fact, approximate to some degree what appears in the screenshot I posted. But the problem is that I intend later to page-anchor these frames so that the elements within them (image-in-table) will be centered vertically on the page (can't do that now, since I still need to insert this document into another and am still editing it: anchoring frames to page at this point will cause frame mayhem later when I further edit or insert this document into another). That re-anchoring will happen after the document is fully edited and stabilized. At that point, I would either lose all caption positioning I did earlier, or lose the ability to center the image vertically on the page. So it seems I can't use JohnV's suggestion.

I thought, while experimenting, of perhaps making the frame within which the table-with-image is contained the full size of the page area within the margins. But with that approach, I'm back at square one: I lose the ability to center that table-with-image vertically on the page, since that can only be accomplished by use of a frame anchored to page. Hmmm, Catch 22?

So far, no one has addressed at all the question with which I started this thread. Namely, of the 3 remaining anchoring options (to paragraph, to character, as character), which would be better for the lower frame on my pages? And, what does each of these do relative to one another? C'mon! Some OOo guru's gotta know this. Or is it something only the programmers who wrote the interface--and who may never use such feature in any real-world application--can answer? Please, if someone knows what each of these options does relative to one another and/or can recommend which might be better for my purposes, please answer!

Thanks, James
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