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Greek letters for equations

 
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DavidCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:16 am    Post subject: Greek letters for equations Reply with quote

I just read in the Digest - another person couldn't find the Greek letters to use as symbols in equations. I installed OOo Beta 2 yesterday and took a tour last night - I also found the "Greek letter" table to be almost empty. A responder suggested start a new thread. I looked at all 6 pages of topics for "Math" and found only a single related item - a request for the letter pi.

In my initial tour and practice with Math here's what I did:
- I clicked the OOo 2Beta icon, clicked the drop down by "create new OpenOfc document" icon below File & Edit in toolbar, clicked "formula" [WHY ISN'T THAT WORD 'MATH'?], which opens a new screen "Untitled 2 OpenOffice.org Math", Clicked Tools, Summation Symbol Catalog and got "Symbols" screen with Greek as default entry but just a lot of empty boxes in a matrix where the Greek letters ought to be. Is my symbols box corrupted or what?
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jrkrideau
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Greek letters for equations Reply with quote

DavidCarter wrote:
I just read in the Digest - another person couldn't find the Greek letters to use as symbols in equations. I installed OOo Beta 2 yesterday and took a tour last night - I also found the "Greek letter" table to be almost empty. A responder suggested start a new thread. I looked at all 6 pages of topics for "Math" and found only a single related item - a request for the letter pi.

In my initial tour and practice with Math here's what I did:
- I clicked the OOo 2Beta icon, clicked the drop down by "create new OpenOfc document" icon below File & Edit in toolbar, clicked "formula" [WHY ISN'T THAT WORD 'MATH'?], which opens a new screen "Untitled 2 OpenOffice.org Math", Clicked Tools, Summation Symbol Catalog and got "Symbols" screen with Greek as default entry but just a lot of empty boxes in a matrix where the Greek letters ought to be. Is my symbols box corrupted or what?


What system and build are you on? I am on Windows XP with 1.9.125 and when I do as you did I get the default Greek Symbol set with 63 Greek letters and when I change to Special there are 12 symbols. It could be that the box is corrupt. Sad
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jrkrideau
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DavidCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:31 am    Post subject: Greek letters for equations Reply with quote

I'm using a 1 month old install of Win XP Pro SP - took a screen shot of "About" and typed up the version and build info:

Win XP Pro Version 5.1 (Build 2600.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519 : Service pack 2)

:So, if you get the symbols and mine are corrupt, what can I do to "uncorrupt" the letters?
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Robert Tucker
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:20 am    Post subject: Couple of suggestions Reply with quote

Have you got Greek language support enabled on your Microsoft installation?

Have you clicked the "Edit" button when you get the "Symbol" dialogue from Tools>Catalog?

Math Help - Symbols - Adding in OpenOffice.org Math
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DavidCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:05 am    Post subject: Greek letters for equations Reply with quote

No, I don't have Greek language support for Windows - I use English Read the Microsoft Knowledge base article - seemed to only apply if I were to use Greek language. I only want Greek letters to use in math formulae

I clicked "Edit" in the Symbol dialog from Tools>Catalog. I don't want to change anything, i just want to see Greek alpahbet/symbols as they normally appear (pi, rho, beta, etc)

Went to Math>Help - nothing relevant.

I have square boxes instead of Greek letters except for A B X E H and a few other capital letters and varrho at bottom.

I'd think a math formula program would have a simple Greek letter system for picking and inserting into equations.

Remember, this is my first day to ever see this program or try this stuff, so there has to be something I'm missing in the "basic concepts and procedures" area. I can't imagine that the vast collaboration and fine tuning of OOo would fail to include the Greek alphabet symbol set.
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jrkrideau
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Greek letters for equations Reply with quote

DavidCarter wrote:
No, I don't have Greek language support for Windows - I use English Read the Microsoft Knowledge base article - seemed to only apply if I were to use Greek language. I only want Greek letters to use in math formulae


I don't either and I am getting the Greek letters with no problem

Quote:
I clicked "Edit" in the Symbol dialog from Tools>Catalog. I don't want to change anything, i just want to see Greek alpahbet/symbols as they normally appear (pi, rho, beta, etc)

Went to Math>Help - nothing relevant.

I have square boxes instead of Greek letters except for A B X E H and a few other capital letters and varrho at bottom.

I'd think a math formula program would have a simple Greek letter system for picking and inserting into equations.

Remember, this is my first day to ever see this program or try this stuff, so there has to be something I'm missing in the "basic concepts and procedures" area. I can't imagine that the vast collaboration and fine tuning of OOo would fail to include the Greek alphabet symbol set.


It does, at least in my version. Are you using a OOo1.1.X or 1.9.x version? I have never used a 1.1.X version but the 1.9.125 certainly has the Greek letters.

If you are not using it, it might be worth downloading it (or a newer build if one is out) and seeing what is happening. It is possible to have a 1.1.X and a 1.9.X version on the machine at the same time.
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DavidCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using the latest OOo 2.0 Beta download (1.9.125). I also have, in other folders, 1.9.85 and an earlier Beta. But what I'm using is 1.9.125 (says so in Help, About. That's why I'm perplexed that such a basic thing isn't working "out of the box".

Maybe I need to check what the default font is for this download - maybe it can't display Greek in that font????? Remember, I'm a new guy and new guys always "don't know" or "overlook" or . . . . . There's got to be something basic for me to do if your distro of the same version 1.9.125 is showing ALL the Greek letters.
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Robert Tucker
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Greek letters for equations Reply with quote

DavidCarter wrote:

I clicked "Edit" in the Symbol dialog from Tools>Catalog.

I have square boxes instead of Greek letters except for A B X E H and a few other capital letters and varrho at bottom.


Square boxes almost invariably mean you are not accessing a font capable of displaying the characters you want.

When you click "Edit" what font does it indicate it is using?

FWIW mine shows:

Symbol: ALPHA

Symbol set: Greek

Font: Times New Roman

Subset: Basic Latin

Typeface: Italic


The fonts that come supplied with OpenOffice are the "Vera" fonts and Open Symbol. Having a quick look at these I'm not sure I see a full Greek alphabet. Possibly your OpenOffice installation cannot access the rest of your fonts from where it is installed. Do you get a full selection of fonts in Writer?
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DavidCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:51 pm    Post subject: Greek letters for equations Reply with quote

You and I are seeing the same thing. When I click Tools, Catalog and get the "Symbols" window with the small table of symbols on left and the "select" button at top right, Alpha, Beta, and Chi are filled in, but when I click on the "square box" for "Delta" it is just an empty box. This is the problem that I think is a bug in this "beta" version of OOo Math.
Then, when I click Edit and get the confusing presentation of Old Symbol and Old Symbol Set at top, and then a big table of alphabet or symbols, then get the "selection boxes" down toward the bottom half, I can't get any combination of things to cause any difference in displaying "delta". Time out - I'm going to investigate more. OK, after 2 hours of experimenting finally determined that 1) the Symbols table (before editing) has NO FONT associated with the various symbol. Click any symbol with a box instead of the Greek letter and get its name to show, then click "Edit" and that name is now in both he left and right symbol boxes at bottom right and in the two associated windows showing the name.
- The font window is blank and the Janpanese or Chinese character set shows in the "pick window". Select Font-Arial Narrow and subset=Greek and the "pick window" displays the upper case Greek letters followed by the lower case. I was able to pick some that I knew (upper and lower case) to that they appeared in the lower rt box, clicked "Modify", OK, and now the Main Symbols window has the letter filled in instead of a "box".
- I don't know all the Greek alphabet and when I drag my mouse pointer over any letter in the "pick box" or click it, I never get the name of it displayed - I have to know what I'm picking (I'm just an ignorant high school and college grad who only knows the letters I saw over and over - I'm not proficient in Greek.
- I think Math's "symbols" table for Greek ought to be filled in completely before it is released.

Do you think I've stated this issue well enough to submit it as a bug?
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Robert Tucker
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what it does is to take the Greek letters which are the same as Roman - A, B, E, H, I, K, O, P, T from a Roman font (one of the "Vera" fonts or Times?) and most of the Greek ones - Δ, δ, ε, Θ, θ etc etc - from the Open Symbol font.

It may be that you don't have the Open Symbol font installed where this version of OpenOffice is expecting to find it - as I said above it's one that comes with OpenOffice.

Can you find it in:

~\openoffice.org1.9.125\share\fonts

If it's not there, I would suspect your download. Did you download from the main OpenOffice site?

I seem to remember meeting something about not having the Open Symbol font before.
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DavidCarter
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:24 am    Post subject: g Reply with quote

I have c:\program files\OpenOffice.org1.1.4, 1.9.87, and 1.9.125 (3 separate folders, one after the other). Each has a Share folder, and none of those folders had "Fonts" I did a Windows Search for fonts and had 40 hits, but none associated with OpenOffice paths.

Yes, I downloaded from the main OOo site.

Does it sound reasonable to assume that all three "builds" I have all omitted the "Fonts" folder?

If so, or in any other case, how would I go about downloading the fonts and adding them to the "Share" folder?
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Robert Tucker
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a look through my installations: Debian 1.1.3 does not have a fonts folder in the share folder at all; Debian 1.9.114 only has Open Symbol in the fonts folder in share and 1.9.125 has the "Vera" fonts plus Open Symbol in the fonts folder in share as have all the other "standard Linux" installations I've had which I remember checking.

I get the same information with all three from Tools>Catalogue>Symbols>Edit

Open Symbol is also installed in /usr/share/fonts on my Linux installation so that it can be used "system-wide".

Do you in fact have Open Symbol installed so that all applications can use it? Do you have Open Symbol in the drop down list in OOo1.9.125 Writer?

Does OpenOffice perhaps just use the Microsoft Symbol font on Windows? Is there a problem with opens___.ttf on Windows? It looks as if there might be:

http://www.newsforge.com/software/02/09/13/201254.shtml?tid=11

opens___.ttf is a purely OpenOffice font, of course:

http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts_windows.html
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daydreamer
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Would a menu for variables/symbols be possible? Reply with quote

Wouldn't it be easier to have these greek symbols and the special characters available
as menu functions in the equation editor. Since these are reprsented by the formala editor as strings like %alpha and %ALPHA, this would seem more logical and practical.

From viewing the source code for 'starmath' this would probably only require modification of
'starmath/source/commands.src' and 'starmath/source/smres.src'
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